Here is a different approach to the 607 question. The JW premise is impossible to sustain - utterly, completely, mathematically, scripturally unsupportable.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/607/index.html
jd
jonathan dough
JoinedPosts by jonathan dough
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70 weeks - Xerxes, Artaxerxes: How weak is the WT position cmp. to 607?
by bohm inso, in my bible study i can see we are approaching chapter 4 of "what does the bible really teach" about daniels profecy.
the book says: "another example is about the profecy of daniel 9:25, a profecy which many centuries in advance predicted exactly when messias would appear - in the year 29".
there is a small appendix which ties this up to wether artaxerxes 20th year was in 455bc (455bc + 7x69weeks, ie.
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Our "Bible Study" with the Jehovah's Witnesses
by garyneal inmy wife and i had a "bible study" with an elder and his wife yesterday (9-11-09) and the topic was marraige.
the book we covered was "keeping yourself in god's love.
" this particular "bible study" was based primarily on the topic we covered in the book and, of course, there was a lot of "hop scotching" of the bible.
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jonathan dough
I would be interested in knowing if your elders at the book study believe the following summary of JW beliefs.
I. Summary of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Beliefs as they relate to the contents of this paper.
Every now and then the Jehovah's Witnesses make significant changes to their doctrine that reach to the very core of their belief system. As such, it can be a real challenge to pinpoint exactly what they believe from one year to the next. The changes they make are to be expected given the weakensses in their dogma and the need to accomodate mountains of theological criticism. Invariably those changes bump up against other points of Society doctrine resulting in an ever-growing tangled mass of contradictions. Due to the nature of these shifting sands one should take their asserted beliefs with a grain of salt.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 people go to heaven (Reasoning from the Scriptures (Reasoning) [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985], 166). They are the bride of Christ, God’s children, the elect, and often referred to as the “anointed” of Christ (Insight on the Scriptures (Insight), 2 vols. [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1988], 786). The New Testament Greek Scriptures (New Testament) were written primarily to, and for the benefit of, these brothers of Christ. They are specially chosen because they live especially good lives while on earth (Insight, 786-788). Once resurrected to heaven, a process which began in 1918 and will soon be concluded (the first resurrection) (Revelation - Its Grand Climax at Hand (Revelation Climax), [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 19__] 103, 277) they will become a kingdom of priests and kings who will rule with Christ for one thousand years over humans on earth (Insight, 170, 524, 525).
This reign will involve their judging resurrected humans during the thousand year reign, and after the thousand year reign when resurrected mankind will undergo a final decisive test before being destroyed forever or having their names written permanently in God’s book, or scroll, of life (Insight, 251, 788). Whereas the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven as spirit creatures, all other billions of humans worthy of the resurrection during the thousand year reign will be resurrected as corrupt flesh and blood humans with the possibility of immortality on earth (Reasoning, 333-336; Insight, 251). During the thousand year reign the Great Crowd will engage in “perfecting” resurrected humans to a sinless condition enjoyed by Adam and Eve before the fall (Reasoning, 337, 338).
The Great Crowd (or large multitude) is a term found at Revelation 7:9. The Great Crowd are those Jehovah’s Witnesses who survive the Great Tribulation. They do not die, do not need to be resurrected and are declared righteous through faith (Insight, 788) although it appears as though they also must pass a final, decisive test to gain eternal life (Insight., 251). Most Jehovah’s Witnesses today consider themselves to be members of the Great Crowd and according to their interpretation of Revelation 7:9-17 they will always be earthly, not heavenly, subjects of the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God). As to those Jehovah’s Witnesses who are not of the 144,000 and do not survive the Great Tribulation, it is believed they will be resurrected in God’s due time (Insight, 788).The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when Jesus Christ died and rose to heaven to sit on God’s throne he began to reign only as king over his congregation of 144,000 followers who at the time were still earthly subjects of this spiritual kingdom (Insight, 524). This rule began with Christ’s blood sacrifice which was initiated pursuant to the much-anticipated New Covenant which replaced the old Mosaic Law covenant (Law covenant). This New Covenant, to which only God, Christ and the 144,000 are parties, will expire shortly after the last of the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven (Insight, 524). The only people who have their sins forgiven through Christ's blood sacrifice from the time of Adam until the beginning of the thousand year reign are the 144,000 (Insight, 736).
The real kingdom of God, a much larger, expansive and lengthier kingdom, began in 1914 (the 1914 kingdom) when Christ supposedly sat on the throne to begin his rule over mankind (Insight, 169). Jesus, being a mere angel (Reasoning, 218) created hundreds of millions of years ago, only receives a subsidiary share of this kingdom of God (Insight, 169). 1914 A.D. is arguably the most important date in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ belief system because it is the year that Jesus returned, or arrived (Great Man, ch. 133, 2; Reasoning, 344), to earth. This was the invisible Second Coming of Christ, or “parousia.” It also heralded the beginning of the first of three judgment days.
We are currently in the first judgment day period. Under the guidance of the remaining earthly anointed 144,000, the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses were taught that they were separating the earth’s sheep and goats through their door-to-door ministry (The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived) (Great Man) [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1991] chapter 111, 12-15). This fundamental doctrine, however, changed in 1995. The separation of sheep and goats has been postponed, for now, until a time after the Great Tribulation begins (The Watchtower, Oct. 15, 1995, pg. 23). The sheep join God’s one and only earthly organization, thus becoming members of the Great Crowd (if they survive the Great Tribulation) and earn the opportunity to live life everlasting; all the goats, those who do not heed their invitation, will be destroyed forever during the Great Tribulation and Armageddon with no prospect of resurrection (Ibid.).
The only humans who survive the Great Tribulation and Armageddon, where all the enemies of God are destroyed, are members of the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses (Ibid.); no one else. Then begins the thousand year reign of Christ and the 144,000 over the earth’s Great Crowd and the righteous and unrighteous - at least those who merit the resurrection during the thousand years (Reasoning, 339-340). This general resurrection during the millennium is the second resurrection according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. One of the tasks of the Great Crowd during this peaceful thousand year reign is to restore post-apocalyptic earth to a paradise-like condition. The Great Crowd also assists in educating the 20 billion resurrected dead to the will of God, to get to know Jesus, and to live in accordance with new laws and regulations revealed through the Law Scrolls of God opened at Revelation 20:12 (Insight, 788). The purpose of educating the resurrected is to lift them to a state of perfection on par with Adam and Eve’s sinless state of perfection they enjoyed before rebelling against Jehovah God (Ibid.).
The second judgment day period occurs during the thousand year reign. “Perfected” humans, now only corruptible rather than corrupt when resurrected, are tested and judged based not on their deeds and works in their previous lives (the one we experience today) but on their deeds during the thousand year reign (Ibid.). They believe this because all men are allegedly acquitted of sin in this life and pay for their sins with the wages of death (Insight, 788; Reasoning, 338). Therefore, the only deeds or sins for which they can be put on judgment for are those committed during the thousand year reign, and their conduct during the final test after the thousand years.
The final test of their fidelity begins after the thousand year reign, the third judgment day, when those remaining perfected humans are confronted with the unleashing of Satan from the abyss and all which that entails. If they pass the test successfully they will have their names permanently written in the scroll, or book, of life. If they fail they are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second Death, that is, eternal destruction (Insight, 251).
Thereafter, the services of Christ, the angel, are no longer required. He is no longer needed as a helper in terms of a propitiatory sacrifice, nor as a legal intermediary between God and man. Accordingly, he is dispensed with in this regard (Insight, 170).
The Jehovah's Witnesses believe with all sincerity that they "have the truth" and "are in the truth." However given the very significant repudiation of past doctrines that have formed the essential core of their beliefs for over one hundred years it is doubtful they can make that claim. If their "truth" is not the "truth" by their own admission then their theories were false.
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QUESTION TO JW REGARDING THE DOCTRINE OF 144,000
by Celestialfrontier ini am not a jehovah's witness, and until yesturday i never knew the beliefs of your congregation.
when i did finally read them, i was amazed to discover that most of what the lord has revealed to me as truth, through my prayers and studies, is found in your beliefs.
and out of all the christian denominations that exist, "most" of your beliefs are according to the word of god, unlike the other churches.. .
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jonathan dough
Everything you need to know about the 144,000 can be found right here:
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The Son in two persons
by Deputy Dog inthe wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.
when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.
one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .
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jonathan dough
Reniaa said:
Hi Jon
I completely disagree with you since I consider John 17-1-3 as ample proof among others that JEsus isn't the 'one true God' so we are at an impasse. I completely repudiate your claim that the bible in any way states Jesus is the 'One true god' .
Aside from that your reasoning is circular using one unproven theory to validate another unproven theory. that are both challenged by witnesses and their lack of mention by the bible.
Does the bible ever say Jesus is the 'One true God? No.
Does it say Jesus is the son of the father who is the 'One true God alone? YES john 17:1-3
Does the bible say at any point Jesus is joined to a flesh creature Jesus? No
Does it say 'The word' became flesh not joined to flesh? Yes john 1:14
Reniaa
REPLY: Christian theology on this issue is not circular at all, and by virtue of your argument you're being a hypocrite because how many times have we heard the old refrain from the Society that you must "weigh all the evidence." You're not weighing anything; you are letting the tail wag the dog. There is a mountain of evidence that proves you wrong but you won't even stick your toe in the water because you know full well you don't have a leg to stand on.
First, you have completely ignored dozens upon dozens of verses that prove the Divinity of Jesus, that he was and is God. Until you can face up to those verses and deal with that your theory is completely baseless.
Secondly, contrary to what you claim, 1 John 5 :20 does refer to Jesus as the true God, but that is just one piece of the pie, one small piece in addition to the vast number of other scriptureal proofs.
Third, you keep misleading the public by telling them that Christians believe that Jesus the creature is the Almighty Father, but they don't teach that, and your repetition of that distortion doesn't make you right some how.
Fourth, neither do Christians teach "Jesus is joined to a flesh creature Jesus?". Why do you persist on such misleading tactics. You are just making yourself look bad, and devious. Jesus was/is a divine person who assumed a human nature. That is mainstream Christianity. If you believe otherwise, then the Society has greatly mislead you into believing something that is not true and you need to have a serious talk with them.
Fifth, therefore, the Word did not "become" flesh in the modular sense and become just a man, nothing more or less. The overwhelming weight of scriptural authority proves, beyond any reasonable doubt, that He was not just a mere man, or a created angel.It's all right here:
http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20
JD II
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The Son in two persons
by Deputy Dog inthe wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.
when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.
one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .
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jonathan dough
Reniaa wrote:
John 1:14 (New American Standard Bible)
14 And (A) the Word (B) became flesh, and (C) dwelt among us, and (D) we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of (E) grace and (F) truth. This scripture alone refutes any sort of hypostatic union and none you have addresses this clear constradiction to you hypostatic construct theory other than just blind denial of its blatant truth. the word 'became' past tense of 'become' in reference to this usage means a change of state from one thing to another completely. and not just stopping but clarifying it more saying once 'the word' became flesh it 'dwelt among us'. Reniaa REPLY: Your tail is wagging the dog. If Jesus was, and is, God, which he was and is, then John 1:14 cannot be read literally the way you do. The only way your theory works is if you prove Jesus was nothing more than a man, and conversely that He was not God. Which you can't. But you have made a concerted effort to sidestep this very big issue. Here is the proof. http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20 JD II
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The Son in two persons
by Deputy Dog inthe wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.
when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.
one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .
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jonathan dough
Not nice, and a tad immature. I would never do that to you.
JD II
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332
The Son in two persons
by Deputy Dog inthe wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.
when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.
one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .
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jonathan dough
This would also be another good thread:
"PS
An even bigger problem for the JWs is:
If Jesus is their mediator today, The "man" Christ Jesus. Is he a human being, a spirit being or both?" by dd
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332
The Son in two persons
by Deputy Dog inthe wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.
when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.
one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .
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jonathan dough
JD
If you really want to beat these people, don't reinvent the wheel. Trinitarians whipped them centuries ago. They have a very strong case. It starts with the fact that Jesus was, and is, God. Nail that down and the rest falls into place because Jesus could not have been a created angel, and much more.
You're missing the point. I agree with you about the trinity. If you want to beat them in a trinity debate start a trinity thread and have at it. I may try to help you.
This thread is not about beating them in a debate about the trinity but showing how confusing their teaching is.
REPLY: But as I said, your topic is exaclty about economic Trinity even if you might not recognize it. And the best way to show how confusing their teachings is, and false, is to present them with the truth, which is the the Trinity doctrine. And even if that is not our way of going about it, that's mine, and this is still a free country. Whatever. Where is Reniaa when we need her?
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I need some good sriptures & reasoning to refute Jesus = Michael Archangel
by androb31 ini have a lot of good stuff at home on the subject but i'm at work and could use some help for a friend who was just conversing w/ a jw..
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jonathan dough
First, prove that He was and is God, and therefore he couldn't be a created angel.
This would be the best place to start: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20
Then, tackle Hebrews here: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-9.html#46
But there is no need to reinvent the wheel. It's already been done for you at these two links.
JD II
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The Son in two persons
by Deputy Dog inthe wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.
when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.
one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .
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jonathan dough
JD,
It seems that the Wt article that DD posted says that Jesus was Human, before that he was a spirit being whos life force was transferred into Mary an dthen after his death he became a spirt being again, yes?
REPLY: That's the way I read it. First an angel, then a man, then a super-angel - heretic modalism - which the church condemned centuries ago. Transferring his life force doesn't make him 2 persons. It is basic jw doctrine that Jesus was a man, nothing less and nothing more. One person, not two. I'm not a fan of the JWs, far from it, but if the man is the first person, identify the second, or more specifically, point to where they actually teach that.
The JW Jesus is not two persons any more than the trinitarian hypostic Christ is two persons, at least that is what Christianity teaches. Take it up with the Pope and Billy Graham if anyone disagrees. Jesus was one person, one divine person who assumed a human nature just as the quotes above indicate. Now if you are saying the "transferred life force" is the equivalent of the God of the God-man, and that it is the spirit of Michael the Angel so that Jesus was an angel-man instead of a God-man, your left with the problem that the JWs teach that Jesus was nothing more or less than a man. Tough to get around that one, but the beauty of that is that it completely and utterly destroys their theories because they must reconcile all of the evidence that Jesus was, and is, God. And they can't do that to save their lives. Their burden of proof is insurmountable.
Not that I agree with the JWs. They are wrong about everything and give me the shivers, but I would suggest something stronger than a transferred life force, preferably a concession on their part in writing that Jesus was in fact "2 persons" though I doubt you will find it. I think DD is trying to force the second person onto their theories.
If you really want to beat these people, don't reinvent the wheel. Trinitarians whipped them centuries ago. They have a very strong case. It starts with the fact that Jesus was, and is, God. Nail that down and the rest falls into place because Jesus could not have been a created angel, and much more.
JD II